Dragon's Crown |OT| -- NOW AVAILABLE! Hands-On Impressions Inside!

Where is the common sense you were just talking about? You're saying age is the thing that matters in decisions, and not experience or knowledge about the matter you're making decisions about.iDefinition

No reasonable adult with a modicum of common sense would attempt to justify teenage prostitution.

[QUOTE="iDefinition"]Where is the common sense you were just talking about? You're saying age is the thing that matters in decisions, and not experience or knowledge about the matter you're making decisions about.capaho

No reasonable adult with a modicum of common sense would attempt to justify teenage prostitution.

[QUOTE="iDefinition"]Where is the common sense you were just talking about? You're saying age is the thing that matters in decisions, and not experience or knowledge about the matter you're making decisions about.capaho

No reasonable adult with a modicum of common sense would attempt to justify teenage prostitution.

I'm disgusted with the fact that she's wearing all those clothes!! But seriously, it's more funny than offensive

I thought the matter was sexualisation, not prostitution that you two were discussing.Treflis

Again, different culture.iDefinition

I would prefer to see the gender breakdown for people who play video games for (x) hours a week. That study (at least on that page; I read the PDF too) just kinda said "53% male, 47% female" and then didn't go deeper into the gender breakdown. I found the study to be very barebones and I would've preferred it to be more detailed.

When it comes to relevance in this thread, grammatron and bigboi were discussing what types of people are being marketed to with these types of games. Clearly the person who plays let's say 5-10 hours of games a week is more likely to buy games in the future than someone who just plays Angry Birds while trying to kill some time in the doctor's office. That's why I'd like to see a breakdown of "dedicated" gamers. I would also like to see a console-by-console gender breakdown - 360, ps3, wii, smartphone, pc, facebook games, etc.

I mean, that study said that only 46% of gamers planned on buying one game or more in 2012. That leads me to believe that the study was defining "gamer" pretty loosely. For the record, I'm not necessarily disputing that 53% male 47% female statistic. I just want more details behind it.

JML897

I can't say that I agree with your assessment. My girlfriend, for example, plays Facebook and mobile games a whole lot which surely amounts to at least 5 hours a week. Sometimes even I don't play that much. Hell, you can see right there in my sig that I haven't played anything for three days now. She plays multiple games every single day. Also, the vast majority of gamers across all platforms don't buy a lot of games. So far this year I've only bought one game. A whole bunch of people only buy Call of Duty or PES or FIFA on a yearly basis and pretty much call it a day. Also about sales, it doesn't even matter if all you play is Facebook games and never spend a dime on them. Companies have gone on record to say that non-paying customers are extremely important to them becuase they create value for the game simply by playing the game and being part of the community. They still generate indirect revenue.

When you start breaking down the "gamer" terminology, you end up on a slippery slope. We are all equal gamers, we just play different games. If you start looking down on Facebook and mobile games as some sort of "lessers", you are opening a huge can of worms. I've played strategy and simulation games whose depth and complexity would make your average Halo player dizzy. By that logic, from my perspective, they would be casual.

Also, I've played some strategy games on Facebook with surprising depth, so it's definitely not fair to lump them all together. On the flipside, these days there are plenty of extremely casual games on supposed hardcore systems. I think that today both the demographics and games are very mixed across all platforms.

[QUOTE="iDefinition"]Again, different culture.capaho

playstation and vita huh? Man around here seems like Sony has th Midas touch, sorry to burst your bubble but the 3DS is more better then the Vita, sold more too. Just incase you didn't hear the news

Assuming this statement is true, that's some pretty bad parenting. But I don't know any Japanese parents. Do you know some?

[QUOTE="SciFiCat"]What I find offensive is that some individuals are willing to undermine and belittle the artistic achievements on Dragon's Crown absolute visual tour de force by distilling the entire game as "only "a pair of jiggling breasts without looking at everything else this game has to offer.JML897

Don't you think the game is undermining itself?

The game might be f*cking great. I have no idea because I know nothing about it. But to go back to JPL bringing up movies - when I see something like Sofia Vergara's boob cannons on the poster for Machete 2, I think "this is clearly a b-movie without much artistic value". I think something similar when I see a game where the developers create a character with ridiculously huge bouncing boobs while wearing barely any clothing to cover them up. As I said earlier, I don't think it's "offensive" but I just think it's tacky.

It's just like:
*sticks giant distracting breasts in your face*
"HEY, WHY AREN'T YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO THE GAME'S OTHER ARTISTIC ACHIEVEMENTS?"

"Target Audience" this, "Target Audience" that, What the hell is that expression supposed to mean anyways? Are you really trying to tell me that the entire game content is aimed exclusively to an specific teen boob connoisseur demographic?.SciFiCat

Take a gander...

How burly and inappropriate!

Analyzing the Art Behind Dragon's Crown latest Trailers

This is a perfect example of you not accurately understanding the comment you replied to. Go back to my original comment that resulted in that series of replies and see if you can figure it out.capaho

Fair enough, I didn't catch that earlier post regarding the Japanese girls.

Regardless, I find it interesting you opted to respond to this and not the much lengthier post were I directly rebutted your arguments, including your claim that I am directly responsible for the alleged and rampant immaturity of this medium.

[QUOTE="SciFiCat"]"Target Audience" this, "Target Audience" that, What the hell is that expression supposed to mean anyways? Are you really trying to tell me that the entire game content is aimed exclusively to an specific teen boob connoisseur demographic?.capaho

And yet you fail to provide any evidence of this alleged narrow marketing target.

Again, the average gamer is well over the age of thirty and nearly half of us are now female.

Do you truly operate under the delusion that developers and publishers would ignore such data and exclusively market to such a narrow slice of their own consumer demographic, especially when said demographic doesn't have the same level of disposable income?

It makes no sense.

You also make the mistake of acting as if gaming occupies some narrow niche when in reality videogames are a huge market with a broad spectrum of products and a diverse consumer base.

Of course, the entire crux of this lack of diversity argument is flimsy because it is predicated upon a singular character design in one specific game set in an entirely unrealistic construct. Even if we are to broach the subject and engage in an intellectual discussion regarding diversity, attacking this particular title or using it as a springboard to deride an entire industry is nonsensical given its genre and clear adherence to a radically exaggerated aesthetic.

No, I don't. It takes a tad more than a big set of breasts in a videogame character design to offend me. Besides, when you take the design in its proper context, you realize how much work has been put into the creation of something like this beyond the "huh, boobs" impression.

SteelAttack

Reposted for Great Justice! If you honestly believe this topic was created solely to focus on boobies, think again! There's so much more to this game than meets the eye. Read the article on Art Eater and get a new perspective on George Kamitani, Vanilla Ware and the Art Direction of this secretly, incredibly clever game!

--Thanks again to Steel!

Thanks for posting those vids, Leo.

Again, if we are going to have a serious debate on the diversity of characters in gaming then clearly, using this specific game as a starting point is asinine. All of the characters shown possess exaggerated dimensions of physicality and as Sci Fi Cat wrote this is clearly a game steeped in myths and tropes that purposely traffics in well-trodden conventions.

I'd also submit that the character's pose makes her curvaceous form stand out even more but that within the context of the actual game her proportions, while certainly exaggerated, aren't really that extreme, especially given the genre.

Fair enough, I didn't catch that earlier post regarding the Japanese girls.

Regardless, I find it interesting you opted to respond to this and not the much lengthier post were I directly rebutted your arguments, including your claim that I am directly responsible for the alleged and rampant immaturity of this medium.

Grammaton-Cleric

Your sense of self-importance is limitless.  Is there anything you won't argue about?  I'd rather not waste my time.

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Fair enough, I didn't catch that earlier post regarding the Japanese girls.

Regardless, I find it interesting you opted to respond to this and not the much lengthier post were I directly rebutted your arguments, including your claim that I am directly responsible for the alleged and rampant immaturity of this medium.

capaho

Your sense of self-importance is limitless.  Is there anything you won't argue about?  I'd rather not waste my time.

Actually, the only thing I see is you trying to evade crafting a defense to a flimsy point you'd made. Cleric's just asking you to try and defend or buttress your point, which is not only fair, but pretty much expected on this forum. I would have not let the "drooling white" thing go if it wasn't already such a ridiculous, race-baiting argument that had nothing to do with the original point of the thread, but since he has extended the courtesy of engaging you, I would say by all means you should feel somewhat obligated to try and form a reasonable defense to his counter-arguments.

I don't expect you to succeed, but I will enjoy watching it nonetheless. :)

[QUOTE="capaho"][QUOTE="SciFiCat"]"Target Audience" this, "Target Audience" that, What the hell is that expression supposed to mean anyways? Are you really trying to tell me that the entire game content is aimed exclusively to an specific teen boob connoisseur demographic?.Grammaton-Cleric

And yet you fail to provide any evidence of this alleged narrow marketing target.

Again, the average gamer is well over the age of thirty and nearly half of us are now female.

Do you truly operate under the delusion that developers and publishers would ignore such data and exclusively market to such a narrow slice of their own consumer demographic, especially when said demographic doesn't have the same level of disposable income?

It makes no sense.

You also make the mistake of acting as if gaming occupies some narrow niche when in reality videogames are a huge market with a broad spectrum of products and a diverse consumer base.

Of course, the entire crux of this lack of diversity argument is flimsy because it is predicated upon a singular character design in one specific game set in an entirely unrealistic construct. Even if we are to broach the subject and engage in an intellectual discussion regarding diversity, attacking this particular title or using it as a springboard to deride an entire industry is nonsensical given its genre and clear adherence to a radically exaggerated aesthetic.

How about you back those bolded lines up? Not only the numbers in this poll prove the other user's point, lack of diversity in the industry is something we hear about in every video game news source. It's nothing new. 

Look at male to female gamers: You're wrong. You're wrong you're wrong you're wrong. Lack of diversity is an ancient issue. I want to see an article where it says the average gamer is actually 30 year old and half of gamers are women.

Do you find her offensive?

Yes. I am a man and I am offended.8% [6]No. I am a man and I am not offended.83% [63]Yes. I am a woman and I am offended.4% [3]No. I am a woman and I am not offended.5% [4]Total Votes: 76

SEVEN WOMEN TO SIXTY NINE MEN ANSWERED THIS POLL. HOW DOES THAT MAKE US HALF OF VIDEO GAME AUDIENCE? THAT'S BULLCRAP BRULEE

**Giggle!**

You said Sixty-Nine!

[spoiler] Sorry! Someone had to say it! ...and it is MY topic! Carry on!

:P

[/spoiler]

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

[QUOTE="capaho"] That comment was sarcasm, it wasn't meant to be taken literally, although I think it's fairly easy to understand that the marketing demographic for video games is rather narrow.gamingqueen

And yet you fail to provide any evidence of this alleged narrow marketing target.

Again, the average gamer is well over the age of thirty and nearly half of us are now female.

Do you truly operate under the delusion that developers and publishers would ignore such data and exclusively market to such a narrow slice of their own consumer demographic, especially when said demographic doesn't have the same level of disposable income?

It makes no sense.

You also make the mistake of acting as if gaming occupies some narrow niche when in reality videogames are a huge market with a broad spectrum of products and a diverse consumer base.

Of course, the entire crux of this lack of diversity argument is flimsy because it is predicated upon a singular character design in one specific game set in an entirely unrealistic construct. Even if we are to broach the subject and engage in an intellectual discussion regarding diversity, attacking this particular title or using it as a springboard to deride an entire industry is nonsensical given its genre and clear adherence to a radically exaggerated aesthetic.

How about you back those bolded lines up? Not only the numbers in this poll prove the other user's point, lack of diversity in the industry is something we hear about in every video game news source. It's nothing new. 

Look at male to female gamers: You're wrong. You're wrong you're wrong you're wrong. Lack of diversity is an ancient issue. I want to see an article where it says the average gamer is actually 30 year old and half of gamers are women.

Do you find her offensive?

Yes. I am a man and I am offended.8% [6]No. I am a man and I am not offended.83% [63]Yes. I am a woman and I am offended.4% [3]No. I am a woman and I am not offended.5% [4]Total Votes: 76

SEVEN WOMEN TO SIXTY NINE MEN ANSWERED THIS POLL. HOW DOES THAT MAKE US HALF OF VIDEO GAME AUDIENCE? THAT'S BULLCRAP BRULEE

I certainly don't need to speak for Cleric, but he's absolutely right. Here you go:

According to a study conducted by the Entertainment Software Association in 2012, "Forty-seven percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent)."[25][26]

A 2010 study by the Entertainment Software Association had found that the percentage of women playing online had risen to 42%, up several percent since 2004. The same 2010 study showed that 46% of game purchasers were female,[27] and this figure increased to 48% by 2012.[25] In recognition of the importance of the issues of women and girls as game developers and players, the International Game Developers Association, an association of companies and individuals in the games industry, has formed a Special Interest Group on Women in Game Development.[28] This is an active field of discussion and a topic in many conferences in the video gaming industry.[2][3]

According to a survey done in 2004 by the Entertainment Software Association, 25 percent of console players and 39 percent of PC game players were women. Also, 40 percent of online game players were women. According to a report by USA today 60 percent of female gamers played on mobile devices says a survey done by EEDAR. The same survey done by EEDAR also finds 63 percent of these female mobile gamers played online multiplayer mobile games.[29]

The first paragraph pretty much says it all. The statistic about the average gamer being over 30 is ancient news -- well established for over a decade IIRC. I can find a link for you, though. Here you go:

As of 2011, the average age for a video game player is 37,[1] a number slowly increasing as people who were children playing the first arcade, console and home computer games continue playing now on current systems.[2] The gender distribution of gamers is reaching equilibrium, according to a 2011 study showing that 58% of gamers are male and 42% female.[1] As of 2011, ESA reported that 71% of people age six to forty-nine in the U.S. played video games, with 55% of gamers playing on their phones or mobile devices.[1] The average age of players across the globe is mid to late 20s, and is increasing as older players grow in numbers.[3]

What I find offensive is that some individuals are willing to undermine and belittle the artistic achievements on Dragon's Crown absolute visual tour de force by distilling the entire game as "only "a pair of jiggling breasts without looking at everything else this game has to offer.SciFiCat

Fixed!

Female sex appeal in a video game?

What is this sorcery?!

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

And yet you fail to provide any evidence of this alleged narrow marketing target.

Again, the average gamer is well over the age of thirty and nearly half of us are now female.

Do you truly operate under the delusion that developers and publishers would ignore such data and exclusively market to such a narrow slice of their own consumer demographic, especially when said demographic doesn't have the same level of disposable income?

It makes no sense.

You also make the mistake of acting as if gaming occupies some narrow niche when in reality videogames are a huge market with a broad spectrum of products and a diverse consumer base.

Of course, the entire crux of this lack of diversity argument is flimsy because it is predicated upon a singular character design in one specific game set in an entirely unrealistic construct. Even if we are to broach the subject and engage in an intellectual discussion regarding diversity, attacking this particular title or using it as a springboard to deride an entire industry is nonsensical given its genre and clear adherence to a radically exaggerated aesthetic.

 

 

 

Shame-usBlackley

How about you back those bolded lines up? Not only the numbers in this poll prove the other user's point, lack of diversity in the industry is something we hear about in every video game news source. It's nothing new. 

Look at male to female gamers: You're wrong. You're wrong you're wrong you're wrong. Lack of diversity is an ancient issue. I want to see an article where it says the average gamer is actually 30 year old and half of gamers are women.

Do you find her offensive?

Yes. I am a man and I am offended.8% [6]No. I am a man and I am not offended.83% [63]Yes. I am a woman and I am offended.4% [3]No. I am a woman and I am not offended.5% [4]Total Votes: 76

SEVEN WOMEN TO SIXTY NINE MEN ANSWERED THIS POLL. HOW DOES THAT MAKE US HALF OF VIDEO GAME AUDIENCE? THAT'S BULLCRAP BRULEE

I certainly don't need to speak for Cleric, but he's absolutely right. Here you go:

According to a study conducted by the Entertainment Software Association in 2012, "Forty-seven percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent)."[25][26]

A 2010 study by the Entertainment Software Association had found that the percentage of women playing online had risen to 42%, up several percent since 2004. The same 2010 study showed that 46% of game purchasers were female,[27] and this figure increased to 48% by 2012.[25] In recognition of the importance of the issues of women and girls as game developers and players, the International Game Developers Association, an association of companies and individuals in the games industry, has formed a Special Interest Group on Women in Game Development.[28] This is an active field of discussion and a topic in many conferences in the video gaming industry.[2][3]

According to a survey done in 2004 by the Entertainment Software Association, 25 percent of console players and 39 percent of PC game players were women. Also, 40 percent of online game players were women. According to a report by USA today 60 percent of female gamers played on mobile devices says a survey done by EEDAR. The same survey done by EEDAR also finds 63 percent of these female mobile gamers played online multiplayer mobile games.[29]

The first paragraph pretty much says it all. The statistic about the average gamer being over 30 is ancient news -- well established for over a decade IIRC. I can find a link for you, though. 

Okay I hereby declare being owned. I'll get you next time Cleric. I'll get you... *glares*

@Phantom_Leo  SIXTY NINE AND MEN MUHAHAHAHAHAHA... 

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Fair enough, I didn't catch that earlier post regarding the Japanese girls.

Regardless, I find it interesting you opted to respond to this and not the much lengthier post were I directly rebutted your arguments, including your claim that I am directly responsible for the alleged and rampant immaturity of this medium.

capaho

Your sense of self-importance is limitless. Is there anything you won't argue about? I'd rather not waste my time.

Translation: I can't refute what you wrote so I'll stick to making personal insults.

You bore me, Capaho.

Let me know when you are prepared to actually engage the issue at hand, assuming your arguments extend beyond the superficial.

@Phantom_Leo  SIXTY NINE AND MEN MUHAHAHAHAHAHA... 

gamingqueen

**Giggle!**

Okay I hereby declare being owned. I'll get you next time Cleric. I'll get you... *glares*

@Phantom_Leo SIXTY NINE AND MEN MUHAHAHAHAHAHA...

gamingqueen

Did you not read that earlier post I wrote where I linked the most recent survey from the ESA?

Shamus did a fantastic job reiterating the evidence but surely you know I wouldn't pull those types of number out of my ass.

I would also clarify that I'm not flatly dismissing diversity as being unimportant but I am taking very specific issue with people like Capaho who traverse the topic with flimsy logic yet offer nothing to substantiate their claims and rather make assumptions instead of analyze the available data.

The notion that this industry caters almost exclusively to adolescent males is a myth and while they are an important demographic, they are no longer the majority as it pertains to this medium.

Incidentally, I'm not personally looking to own anyone but I am growing sick of people who think empty, vapid statements and opinions alone are enough. You are not one of those people and I actually applaud you for requesting that I back up my statements (despite having already done so) but clearly we have some forum members who believe opinion alone is enough and that they don't have to provide evidence or defend their assertions.

They are wrong.

_______________________

At this point you may be saying to yourself: "Gee Phantom_Leo, Dragon's Crown looks swell and all, but August is a long time from now!" To this I say: "Why not keep yourself busy with some of George Kamitani's earler work in the meantime!"

_______________________

_______________________

Coming to PSN and XBLA this June!

_______________________

Actually, the only thing I see is you trying to evade crafting a defense to a flimsy point you'd made. Cleric's just asking you to try and defend or buttress your point, which is not only fair, but pretty much expected on this forum. I would have not let the "drooling white" thing go if it wasn't already such a ridiculous, race-baiting argument that had nothing to do with the original point of the thread, but since he has extended the courtesy of engaging you, I would say by all means you should feel somewhat obligated to try and form a reasonable defense to his counter-arguments.

I don't expect you to succeed, but I will enjoy watching it nonetheless. :)

Shame-usBlackley

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, Capaho and I have a bit of history that you can read here.

He made himself look very foolish, was grotesquely uncivil at many points and frankly got his rump handed to him by myself and several other regulars.

I actually thought we had reached a point of civility but clearly he is nursing a grudge, though as you can see he isn't willing to take me on head-to-head again.

I actually sort of liked the guy but he keeps taking personal swipes (apparently I'm the downfall of this medium) so there isn't much else to be said.

If he wants to dance my card is open.

I feel bad for even making this argument continue but I have to ask how do we know that article about women percentage isn't taking into account farmville, angry birds, random flash games, etc. I know they are techinically video games but to me (and I believe many of us) we don't even consider that aspect of the industry. How many of these women are buying Bioshock Infinite, GTAV, Tomb Raider, GoW, etc.

dvader654

I suspect many of them are more casually-oriented, but really, does it matter? I mean, take me -- I don't play PC games (at least not on a PC) -- does that make me a second-class gamer? Granted, I do believe there are varying levels of value inherent in different types of gamers. For example, someone on this forum who might purchase 30 or more games a year is far more valuable than someone who buys a $5 flash game once in their life for obvious reasons. However, that wasn't what was being debated -- what was being debated was the demographics; who is playing games of any stripe. That is a big change because I grew up in a house with two women and not once did either of them touch my Atari, nor my Nintendo, nor my Genesis and God knows they were exposed to it enough that if they were inclined, they would have. 

So yeah, I don't think the value of the 40+ percent female market is being discussed, only its existence.

I feel bad for even making this argument continue but I have to ask how do we know that article about women percentage isn't taking into account farmville, angry birds, random flash games, etc. I know they are techinically video games but to me (and I believe many of us) we don't even consider that aspect of the industry. How many of these women are buying Bioshock Infinite, GTAV, Tomb Raider, GoW, etc.

dvader654

Of course it is taking those games into account. And rightly so. Why do they have to buy BioShock Infinite, Tomb Raider, God of War? I don't want to buy those games either.

The stance you're taking right now is no better than the stance some PC gamers have towards console games...and I'm sure you wouldn't approve of that, would you?

I feel bad for even making this argument continue but I have to ask how do we know that article about women percentage isn't taking into account farmville, angry birds, random flash games, etc. I know they are techinically video games but to me (and I believe many of us) we don't even consider that aspect of the industry. How many of these women are buying Bioshock Infinite, GTAV, Tomb Raider, GoW, etc.

dvader654

There are most certainly deeper ways in which such information could be broken down to give us a more complete picture but at the same time I don't think Angry Birds or Farmville are any less real games than something like Wii Sports.

I also think many of us would be surprised at how many hardcore gaming enthusiasts are female.

I also think many of us would be surprised at how many hardcore gaming enthusiasts are female.

 

Grammaton-Cleric

Absolutely. 

One of my best friends is a female gamer from these forums, and she's also one of the most well-rounded players from a skill standpoint that I've ever met. She loves Shmups and Fighters, which pretty much defines hardcore. And like you suggest, I doubt that she is an outlier. I think a lot of females keep their gender tucked away to avoid distractions because they come to these forums or play online out of their love of games, not for attention.

Different Poll!

When are people going to "get it" that there's no such thing as "Casual Games?"

If you think about it:

______________

Could be a stripped down

______________

is practically

______________

is just like any other Artillery game...

______________

Are the Pac-Mans and Donkey Kongs that we started out with any different than the games that are out today? They are simpler in a lot of respects! Gamers are gamers.

This has nothing to do with PC or consoles. There are certain kinds of games that gaming sites, gaming media and these forums basically ignore cause they don't really pertain to what we find relevant. Is farmville reviewed here? Is solitare a covered game in this site? Bejewled? I understand they are games but you don't have to buy them, you don't have to even know about them. Practically everyone has access to these games, someone deciding to play that is not the equivalent as someone buying the new GTA or even someone buying a $3 indie PC game on steam. Its a different kind of situation and the fact that pretty much all gaming sites don't really cover those games in the ways they cover others kind of confirms that for me.

Angry Birds was a bad choice by me, thats a good, pretty traditional game. 

I am just saying that 70 year old grandma playing some free flash game on some site does not make her in my eyes a person who should be considered a video game player.

dvader654

See, but you don't get to determine what is a good game or a traditional game or a game. At its core, Farmville is a pretty traditional tycoon/simulation type game. Try a few turn-based strategy games on Facebook like King's Bounty: Legions or Civilization World and try telling me how they're casual. You don't have to buy them? You don't have to buy Team Fortress 2, Planetside 2 or Star Wars: The Old Republic either. What's your point?

Also, you can spend a TON of money on Farmville, Team Fortress 2 and The Old Republic. Farmville sees more revenue than most "traditional" console games, guaranteed.

What you obviously didn't understand when I mentioned some PC gamers is that you're acting in the same elitist way towards Facebook and mobile games as some PC gamers act towards console games.

You have this really strange thing in that you don't acknowledge anything that isn't directly served to you via GameSpot, E3 or whatever (as I discovered when we talked about the PC market on various occasions). Well, here's a newsflash, they still exist and they're as legitimate as anything you've ever played. You can make up these paramaters that don't make any sense, but that doesn't change anything.

DVADER,

I understand entirely what you are saying and I'll be the first to admit that there are gradients to enthusiasm that further define gamers like you and I as separate from somebody who spends a few minutes per day playing a Facebook game.

That understood, we must also go beyond our own myopic definitions when discussing the full breadth of this medium because gaming and the demographics of those who game are radically shifting and expanding. A person who goes to the movies once a month or watches a few flicks on HBO is still a moviegoer and the and the person who games a few minutes a day on an iPhone is still a gamer.

They may not be a hardcore enthusiast like us but I'm not certain that even matters at this juncture.